Anthony Orosco Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 A few years ago Dr.G, Ron Harris, Kevin Farrell and myself got together here in San Antonio for the Car Care Expo. I introduced Kevin to Menzerna Final Polish and he really liked the product and has since tried the various concoctions or formulas of the Menzerna finishing polishes. One thing we (Kevin, Ron and I) agree upon is that the Menzerna polishes finished down so nice. Compared to Optimum Polish on black it seemed to finish down a notch finer so we used them ojn many of our dark colored cars. Ron and I in the past have noticed some marring on cars we had polished out and it left us puzzled as it was flawless when we had finished and no one had washed it since. So we left it to us missing some spots. Just recently Kevin had the same experience. Polished out a black BMW using Menzera and it was flawless. Yet 3 days later marring appeared, or better "light scratches" that were not there after being polished, or so Kevin thought. I recently polished out a black Carrera using Menzerna and it looked beautiful. The customer also loved it. Some days later when it was bright and sunny I asked him how it looked and he said it looked great but there were a few swirls in the rear fender areas.....I was shocked! Well if you have experienced anything like this then the problem may not be you but rather it may be with some ingredients in the Menzerna formula. There may be a solvent in the formula that is causing the paint to temporarily swell thus giving the paint a false final appearance. Now we don't know this for certain as of yet but it's a hunch and my intention is to not slam Menzerna as it's a fine line of products but rather to set some minds at ease *IF* this be the case. I've seen a few threads on other forums where people have stated that swirls came back after using Menzerna but that it was flawless when they had finished. So it's possible that it may temporarily swell paint. If I find out more I'll be sure to post it up. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detail_Guy Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Hmmmm...... now you've got me thinking. Back in July, we polished out my sons new Escape after a crappy dealer prep job. I used Menzerna IP followed by Final Polish II... both with a rotary. It looked awesome. About a month or so later when my son came over to my place, I noticed some swirls. I attributed them to a bad wash, even though my son insisted that he was careful as always. Even after his insistence, I still brushed it off as "new swirls"... and that still may be the case. Anyhow, I had some Mothers Power Polish on hand that I was using, so I quickly removed the swirls and we reapplied a couple of coats of protection. Haven't noticed the swirls come back since that time. Of course, we "reviewed" the correct washing, drying, and QD'ing techniques at that time. I never gave it much thought... until this thread. With that said, I'm going to watch this thread closely. Please keep us posted Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Very interesting topic! I have noticed this on more than one car that I have detailed but I always blamed it on bad washing or drying technique. On my daily driver (Jet Black BMW 3-Series) I have noticed that there are some small "cobwebbed" swirls after a wash or two. I use ONR to wash my car and it is never real dirty so dirt being washed into the paint is not what caused this. My only concern is with my drying technique; how do yall dry the panel after it is washed with ONR. Do yall blot dry it or just wipe it dry?? I believe that this is what is causing my swirls to come back. Is there a certain drying towel that yall reccomend? I am currently using a WW..... I recently polished out my car with 106ff and after one wash there were already swirls back. Now you have me thinking that it may be the polish Here is a picture of my trunk after my car was polished with 106ff and topped with Carnauba Moose. As you can see it is a perfect looking finish; no swirls! Maybe a good test for Menzerna would be to polish out an area than wipe it down with a 50/50? This should show it is has fillers or not correct? I am looking foward to hearing from you all on my drying technique & on if the polishes are filling or not! Thanks for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Harris Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Very interesting topic! I have noticed this on more than one car that I have detailed but I always blamed it on bad washing or drying technique. On my daily driver (Jet Black BMW 3-Series) I have noticed that there are some small "cobwebbed" swirls after a wash or two. I use ONR to wash my car and it is never real dirty so dirt being washed into the paint is not what caused this. My only concern is with my drying technique; how do yall dry the panel after it is washed with ONR. Do yall blot dry it or just wipe it dry?? I believe that this is what is causing my swirls to come back. Is there a certain drying towel that yall reccomend? I am currently using a WW..... I recently polished out my car with 106ff and after one wash there were already swirls back. Now you have me thinking that it may be the polish Here is a picture of my trunk after my car was polished with 106ff and topped with Carnauba Moose. As you can see it is a perfect looking finish; no swirls! Maybe a good test for Menzerna would be to polish out an area than wipe it down with a 50/50? This should show it is has fillers or not correct? I am looking foward to hearing from you all on my drying technique & on if the polishes are filling or not! Thanks for any help! Steven, We think that the product is causing the paint to swell. An IPA wipe down will not fix this. The best test would be to polish as usual and then not top the finish with any thing. See what the paint looks like after a couple of days. It could sit in the garage for those days it doesn't matter. You just have to wait for the swelling to go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Orosco Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 Yep, Ron is correct here in that an alcohol wipe down will have no effect on a solvent. What *might* be happening is the solvent, which is smaller on a molecular level than the cross linked paint, is being absorbed and not staying on top of the paint. This solvent may then cause the paint to temporarily swell giving the appearance of corrected paint. Some people do this with their show cars and kerosene. I believe it causes the paint to also temporarily swell. For your No Rinse drying.....Ron and I use waffle weave or very plush microfiber towels and we basically wipe the area dry just as in a traditional wash and dry. Now if the paint is rather clean you can also blot dry. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Yep, Ron is correct here in that an alcohol wipe down will have no effect on a solvent. What *might* be happening is the solvent, which is smaller on a molecular level than the cross linked paint, is being absorbed and not staying on top of the paint. This solvent may then cause the paint to temporarily swell giving the appearance of corrected paint. Some people do this with their show cars and kerosene. I believe it causes the paint to also temporarily swell. For your No Rinse drying.....Ron and I use waffle weave or very plush microfiber towels and we basically wipe the area dry just as in a traditional wash and dry. Now if the paint is rather clean you can also blot dry. Anthony Thanks for the help regarding drying! I look foward to hearing more about the Menzerna as well. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehall Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 So how does the paint "swell"? I'm not sure I understand what is actually happening in terms of the cause and effect etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Orosco Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Think of it like Botox for paint. Paint is highly cross linked, meaning it's not a porous as many people and/or product sellers wish to think which is why any product claiming to "add oils" or "nourish" paint is a crock of crap. Only solvents which are smaller on a molecular level than the cross linked paint can be absorbed by the paint so waxes sit on the paint while a solvent, like kerosene, can be absorbed by the paint and can then cause the paint to temporarily swell, thus reducing the appearance of light scratches. Not sure if that clarifies anything so maybe Dr. G can explain it better. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bence Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 High viscosity oils can rest in the imperfections too. If you wiped the paint down with prep solvent at least 2-3 times (IPA is usually not enough) put a powerful IR lamp in front of the panel. It will heat up the area, and after half an hour the truth will be revealed. Some Menzerna oils are definitely stable and you have to work the product in really well and break it down completely not to experience the "filling" effect although the Menzernas don't contain dedicated fillers. Dr. G! Please chime in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe V Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Thank you for explaining something that has been bothering me for years. I had, several times, finished the hood of a black Honda S2000 with Menzerna FP folled up by Klasse AIO. As everyone has already pointed out, it looked flawless at first then marred a few days later after the car hadn't even left the garage. I couldn't figure out what was going on and it was driving me crazy. I've had some experience with polymer swelling and I'm surprised that a solvent could swell cross-linked paint that quickly (the time it takes to apply the polish), but I suppose anything is possible. Typically solvents that are "small" enough to penetrate polymers that agressively have high vapor pressures and evaporate very quickly, and baked, cross linked paints should resist swelling. Anyway I'm glad to know this is a known problem and it wasn't something I was doing wrong!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdT Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Having never used Mezerna's product line, I would suspect that like any polish it constain a volatile solvent or oils which may hide or cover the swirls or marring and when evaporated over 1-3 days period the swirlies will appear. Someone high up at Meguiar's ! told me Merzerna was never really into automotive polishes, their specilaty is in metal polishing. They are trying to get in the car plants, but lack techinical support compared to 3M and Meguiar's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe V Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 This could explain why their emblem sort of looks like a grinder with sparks flying off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bence Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Their expertise is anything abrasive, not just metal polishing. They make one of the finest primer crystals in the world and they are pretty big players in the German automobile manufacturing scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exceldetail Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Their expertise is anything abrasive, not just metal polishing. They make one of the finest primer crystals in the world and they are pretty big players in the German automobile manufacturing scene. German auto manufacturing? Bence you may know more about sales abroad then most of us! I had a talk with the folks over at einszett about Menzerna, and the einszett folks in Germany dont know much about Menzerna.......... I just kind of wonder just how large is Menzerna, in Germany after all....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVR Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 German auto manufacturing?Bence you may know more about sales abroad then most of us! I had a talk with the folks over at einszett about Menzerna, and the einszett folks in Germany dont know much about Menzerna.......... I just kind of wonder just how large is Menzerna, in Germany after all....... It doesn't matter how big or small they are, they make the best some of the best abrasive polishes in the world (at this time) and will not leave fillers that wash out or evapourate a few days or even weeks later The problem is people who say they do are using PC's where menzerna was designed for a rotary From my memory, there are no solvents, just parrafin oil, glycerin, aluminium oxide( abrasive) Prepsol wipedowns show nothing remaining but I usually work the polishes in for three to four minutes Actually Prima Swirl is my favourite 1500 grit polish, that sometimes works better and gets more marks out than Intensive PO91L or SIP and gives a fresh off the gun appearance without any silicone, solvents, wax or fillers Swirl and foamed wool is a great combo However as much as abrasives are good, I believe in regular applications of non abrasive glazes and polishes for the best shine and to keep the paint markless using long term fillers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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