Optimum Compound and Polish - does not work with UDM

[stupenal]

So after doing my 3rd car, I've finally given up on OC and OP. I know I am a n00b, so I figured maybe the first two cars were simply because I didn't use good pads (used the "wolfgang light orange cutting pads" included with my udm order) or because I used too much product, or had the wrong technique.

 

This past weekend I tried removing the millions of swirls on my mom's beater 1999 Toyota Camry. OC could not remove a single damn swirl, even using a yellow pad and UDM on speed 6 for over 5 minutes a section. I'm thoroughly dissatisfied with the lack of results. OP does a decent job of polishing the paint to a shine, but it too does not remove many swirls. Even on my girlfriends 07 Accord (supposedly soft paint), the OP didn't do much with either a green or white LC pad. Her car had very very few swirls, and OP still couldn't get it out. I've tried using the "less is more" technique, and even that barely does anything. I'm seriously on wits end, trying to get Optimum to remove some swirls.

 

When I stopped by Chemical Guys the other day, Paul told me that OP and OC are pretty horrible, and are actually made for optimum by someone else (figures...just like everything else in this detailing world).

 

From what I've searched regarding optimum on this board, not that many people seem to use OP and OC, more so ONR and OPS. Has anyone managed to get OC or OP to work with a UDM, and NOT a rotary? I just feel like with a DA, there's no way to get the OC or OP to break down enough. I generally spend at least 5 minutes per section, proper pressure and moving the UDM slowly across the panel, and the OP and OC will look like its broken down, but the swirls remain.

 

So - what should I get instead? M83 and M80? I'm just looking for something that's not too expensive (like Menz), has a fast working time, and produces decent results. I don't care as much about the best shine, I just don't want to spend another 8 hours detailing my car to find out that the swirls are still there.

 

Thanks!

[Gemini13]

So after doing my 3rd car, I've finally given up on OC and OP. I know I am a n00b, so I figured maybe the first two cars were simply because I didn't use good pads (used the "wolfgang light orange cutting pads" included with my udm order) or because I used too much product, or had the wrong technique.

 

This past weekend I tried removing the millions of swirls on my mom's beater 1999 Toyota Camry. OC could not remove a single damn swirl, even using a yellow pad and UDM on speed 6 for over 5 minutes a section. I'm thoroughly dissatisfied with the lack of results. OP does a decent job of polishing the paint to a shine, but it too does not remove many swirls. Even on my girlfriends 07 Accord (supposedly soft paint), the OP didn't do much with either a green or white LC pad. Her car had very very few swirls, and OP still couldn't get it out. I've tried using the "less is more" technique, and even that barely does anything. I'm seriously on wits end, trying to get Optimum to remove some swirls.

 

When I stopped by Chemical Guys the other day, Paul told me that OP and OC are pretty horrible, and are actually made for optimum by someone else (figures...just like everything else in this detailing world).

 

From what I've searched regarding optimum on this board, not that many people seem to use OP and OC, more so ONR and OPS. Has anyone managed to get OC or OP to work with a UDM, and NOT a rotary? I just feel like with a DA, there's no way to get the OC or OP to break down enough. I generally spend at least 5 minutes per section, proper pressure and moving the UDM slowly across the panel, and the OP and OC will look like its broken down, but the swirls remain.

 

So - what should I get instead? M83 and M80? I'm just looking for something that's not too expensive (like Menz), has a fast working time, and produces decent results. I don't care as much about the best shine, I just don't want to spend another 8 hours detailing my car to find out that the swirls are still there.

 

Thanks!

Ok, you have like 97 questions but I'll answer your main one yes OC and OP will work with a UDM. I used OP this past weekend with my G110. I used first a Yellow Sonus SFX pad fallowed by a White Sonus SFX pad and got probably 75-80% correction. I actually wish I had some OC as I probably would've gotten better results. The keys are slow arm speed and a good a mount of pressure. It does take a while and the polish never really breaks down. Use a SMALL amount (dime size at most) and work it for a minute or two on speed 6 then remove it and inspect. It may take a couple of passes.

[stupenal]

That's the thing - it takes awhile and requires a couple of passes. Is OC and OP worth it then if it takes that much time? It seems like there are better choices out there that won't take that long just to get out some swirls. I may give it another go this weekend, but after spending a couple of weekends with these two products, to say that i'm disappointed is a modest way to put it.

[Anthony Orosco]

So after doing my 3rd car, I've finally given up on OC and OP. I know I am a n00b, so I figured maybe the first two cars were simply because I didn't use good pads (used the "wolfgang light orange cutting pads" included with my udm order) or because I used too much product, or had the wrong technique.

 

This past weekend I tried removing the millions of swirls on my mom's beater 1999 Toyota Camry. OC could not remove a single damn swirl, even using a yellow pad and UDM on speed 6 for over 5 minutes a section. I'm thoroughly dissatisfied with the lack of results. OP does a decent job of polishing the paint to a shine, but it too does not remove many swirls. Even on my girlfriends 07 Accord (supposedly soft paint), the OP didn't do much with either a green or white LC pad. Her car had very very few swirls, and OP still couldn't get it out. I've tried using the "less is more" technique, and even that barely does anything. I'm seriously on wits end, trying to get Optimum to remove some swirls.

 

When I stopped by Chemical Guys the other day, Paul told me that OP and OC are pretty horrible, and are actually made for optimum by someone else (figures...just like everything else in this detailing world).

 

From what I've searched regarding optimum on this board, not that many people seem to use OP and OC, more so ONR and OPS. Has anyone managed to get OC or OP to work with a UDM, and NOT a rotary? I just feel like with a DA, there's no way to get the OC or OP to break down enough. I generally spend at least 5 minutes per section, proper pressure and moving the UDM slowly across the panel, and the OP and OC will look like its broken down, but the swirls remain.

 

So - what should I get instead? M83 and M80? I'm just looking for something that's not too expensive (like Menz), has a fast working time, and produces decent results. I don't care as much about the best shine, I just don't want to spend another 8 hours detailing my car to find out that the swirls are still there.

 

Thanks!

 

First off welcome to the forums.

 

Secondly I challenge Paul to come on this board and offer any proof or evidence that Optimum is NOT formulated for and by David at Optimum. If not then that answers that question. I have evidence otherwise.

 

Thirdly, Optimum works fine with an orbital but yes it's mainly designed around the workings of a rotary. The Polish, because it was designed for rotary, has a great deal of working time so try adding either some OC or HC to the OP if using an orbital. Just make sure that you have more OP than HC if you choose that mixture.

 

Also Bence has some great advice for OP and orbital/DA users so perhaps he can chime in here or you can PM him.

 

Lastly, I'm going to recommend some other products to you, like Meguairs 105 or Menzerna SIP. They are great products and work fine.

 

I am able to give you advice about the product I use mainly plus other products and not have to trash talk them in the process.

 

Anthony

[CrobarCars]

Have you ever detailed a car using other products or pads?

 

I find using any chemicals with a PC will result in taking a long time to work the product correctly, especially when attempting to deswirl. By using the PC, the compromise is the reduction of error by burning the paint vs. the ability to generate sufficient heat to work out swirls in a timely manner. It can be done, it takes time - REGARDLESS of what you use. Optimum products do not take 8 hours of work to generate futile results. Common sense dictates there is something else going on here.

 

I have used the Meg's, Menz., and Chemical Guys products you mention and I can testify, all of them require a different technique while using the same PC. This takes time and the school of trial and error to resolve and learn.

 

While I am sorry to hear you spent all this time with no results, I question why you didn't stop and ask before the investment of this time was made while no results were appearing.

After one hour and no results on the first car you worked on should have sent a message that there is something else going on here. Why come on now, seemingly, with a rather negative post about how Optimum products suck?

 

 

Do you know Paul personally? How did you come upon Chemical Guys? Do you live in LA? Paul has classes that can show you the correct use of the PC on real cars. Didn't he suggest you sign up? I know Paul and he is not shy in assisting people with his classes. He has a very accomplished LA detailer teaching the classes. It may be well worth your while. I can't imagine you told him your endevour and he didn't suggest you take the classes inorder to ID the paint defects, and proper use of pad and chemical combinations, working times and how to turn a hobby into some extra cash.

 

I can assure you, that I am very familiar with the Chem Guys product line and enjoy them as well as the Optimum line of products. I prefer the Optimum line, due to the long "WORKING" times. A long working time doesn't mean the entire detail takes longer. In fact, I save time using Optimum with a CYCLO (same will hold true with the PC) because I do not have to stop constantly, brush the pad clean, and then go back to your panel and start again. By using Optimum, I can just continue working and by the end of the day I have accomplished my task sooner because of the LONGER WORKING TIMES, rather than taking me longer to do the job.

 

There are many misunderstandings within this post.

 

I think you may be suffering by a level of frustration of not meeting your expectations and citing blame on Optimum chemicals. Why not blame the PC or the pads at sucking or not being able to choose the correct pad combinations and chemicals? More knowledge and technique may be required to reach successful results.

 

There are many success stories of Optimum chemicals by those who do use and have switched to Optimum products. Which is probably why you purchased it originally. I can understand that, however, it seems that user error or a misunderstanding or a lack of sufficient practice in identifying the severity of the problem and using the correct pad and compound/polish combination. I will say that technique and knowledge of the task (identifying what Paint Correction necessary) is the most important part of detailing. The physical exertion of detailing is merely the execution of what you have predetermined the issues of the task at hand require.

Now did you try any other pads than this one you mentioned? Was the pad washed prior to it's first use? Was it clean before applying product. In some brands of pads there are tiny fibers (that same color of the pad) that remain on and in the pad from the manufacturing process. This could cause a terrible outcome.

 

Do your pictures represent the swirls prior to your working on the car or were they introduced by the pad/polish and user combination?

 

Have you ever been taught the correct techniques in person or are you just detailing after reading?

 

What pads other than this Orange Wolfgang one do you have? Have you attempted other pad combinations. Are you using about 5lbs of pressure on the head of the PC while attempting to polish. It may be possible that hyper compound is necessary for your initial passes. What techniques are you using?

 

 

Please do not take offense to my next comment, but in my best American Idol Simon Cowel voice, Is this a real post or a flame? The tone just isn't what I am used to reading here.

[Bence]

Yes, the original poster can refine the tone to fit into this fine community.

 

My thoughts:

 

One important thing is to understand with Optimum is that the lubrication of Optimum is different form others.

 

If you are waiting for proper breakdown, aka residue going clear, you are overworking it. I intentionally didn't write "working it too long", because it is almost impossible with OP. BUT, overworking it means that you are doing a polishing step, and a burnishing step. Yes, the buffing film/residue will go clear after a loong time but that doesn't mean that the polish broke down only at that time. In fact it breaks down significantly sooner. Abrasive breakdown and lubrication stability is not the same thing.

 

Optimum's buffing film behaves differently. It stays on the surface for an extremely long time to provide sufficient lubrication. If you wait for clearup, you wait too long. Simply check your work by removing it and evaluate the finish. Done? Yes – move to a new working area. No – buff longer without adding more polish, as it stays wet.

 

Using too much Optimum polish is contraproductive. Overdose Optimum lubrication works like engine oil – where you need a constant lube film to separate the piston from the cylinder walls. Abrasion in an engine? Not good. But we WANT abrasion; we don’t want to keep the parts/surfaces separated. The Optimum abrasives are fine, so when you overapply an Optimum polish/compound, the particles won’t be able to strike through the lubrication film, and the product wil skate on itself, without being effective. Use very little product, which will provide a fine, very thin buffing film, and the abrasives will do the work. Always shake the product well, to ensure even distribution of particles within the emulsion.

 

Working with a DA, the Optimum products obviously take more time. Using a high-speed/short throw DA (over 10.000 OPMs, 2.5-4 mm pad throw) helps as well.

 

As a system, the Optimum family works excellent. When you are done with the OP step, you don't have to remove the residue, because Poli-Seal can absorb it. Poli-Seal itself – applied correctly – works without leaving residue, so you won't see it on the surface. It just works, trust it. And where is no residue, the OOS can go on without any mid-step. If you overapplied OPS, and there is a slight residue on the surface, remove it with a towel, with OCW or with the MF applicator while you put on the OOS.

 

Optimum is like an artist polish. You can work it, refine it, work it more, check it and work it again. It can work quickly with higher RPMs too, but it is an intelligent and user friendly line. Its dustless nature brings passion into the process because you don't have to think about cleaning up or even powerwashing everything again. And this is priceless to me.

 

 

Little sidetrack, but also important:

 

There are a couple of misconceptions in the heads of people about correct Optimum usage.

For example WOWA sealants. I feel that people often think that these sealants need only one wipe, then they should be left alone. Well, no. You have to basically working it *in* without any pressure. You wipe it on gently (it will/can pull a faint rainbow-trail, which evaporates right away), but you can going over an area as much as you want; knocking down high points (where too much sealant is).

If you looking this on a micro-level, it's not surprising that people see streaks, etc., because the product is overapplied on that particular spot. You don't have to see the actual contrail of the product on the surface - just as using Poli-Seal. If you still want to see it, just push down the applicator to see if there is still enough sealant hides in the app. It will show up on the surface.

 

The other is ONR. I’ve been talking to people who were complaining about the product, about scratching, etc. They said it is false to claim that you just wash the panel then wipe it dry as the drying MF is dirty and this dirt is scratching the paint. They thought that you should wash the panel ONCE, then wipe it dry. BIG BS – but it clearly shows certain interpretation problems.

So, you lift the ONR solution with your washing media to the panel (pre-sprayed or not, your preference) and gently wash it. If the panel is dirtier, or the traffic film is stickier, that means that there is still some soiling to remove. Rinse your mitt in a bucket of clean water (2BM is recommended when washing really dirty vehicles), dip it in the ONR solution and wash the panel again. And again, and again until it’s completely clean! ONLY THEN wipe it dry. Done.

[Bunky]

Thanks Bence. This is the kind of info I trying to find (ref to my PM at DB forum). The HC /OP blend sounds like a nice trick to kick it up.

[Anthony Orosco]

Yeah, I would rather not sling mud and avoid the drama (cause evryone gets some mud on them) and just deal with trying to help people out who are really seeking to be helped.

 

Bence and Crobar......great information in the replies, I appreciate that.

 

Anthony

[stupenal]

Wow. I think my original post (and maybe subsequent post) came off a tad bit different than I intended it to be.

 

First off - before people start thinking I'm here to sling mud - a little about me. I used to think that using the klasse twins along with a clay bar put me 1000x ahead of the ordinary car owner. Then I started browsing autopia recently and started researching a bit into proper auto care and realized just what a n00b I am. I purchased my UDM, pads, and Optimum products from AG a couple of months ago and proceeded to detail my car. After spending about an hour doing my car, I realized that the swirls weren't really coming out. I attributed this to the "hard paint" found on bmws (even though mine is a 1997) and thought that perhaps the swirls would go away once I hit the car with OP. Then maybe Klasse AIO would help remove a little bit more. By the time I got there, I had already spent the 8 hours, and realized that maybe it was just my pads that were horrible (I was using the wolfgang orange pads that came for free...). About a week later, while my car was under some outdoor lighting at night, I saw that the car was FILLED with swirls still. For some reason they didn't show up under my 1000w craftsman light in my garage, but were easily seen underneath the outdoor lighting.

 

Fast forward to last weekend - I was looking for a local place that stocked the LC LCC pads so I didn't have to wait for shipping. Lo and behold, it turns out chemical guys is only about 10 miles away from my house. I stopped by to pick up some pads and ended up walking in on Paul presenting a seminar. He welcomed me to hang out a bit as he was showing how to use the CG products to a small group of people. This is where I had the conversation with him regarding the optimum polishes and how he told me "they're crap." I ended up buying the lcc orange pads and a yellow pad from him, and asked what I should buy from CG that may help my situation. He told me to just try the pads first, see if they helped, and if not, to come back to him.

 

I went home and decided to try the products on my mom's camry. I tried using very little product, lots of pressure, no pressure, medium pressure, you name it. I used OC with a yellow lcc pad, OC with an orange lcc pad, and OP with an orange lcc pad. I am FULLY AWARE of my n00b status, but even after all this experimentation, I really saw no results. These pads were the brand new lcc pads I had bought earlier in the day. I misted them slightly with QD before polishing. My polishing technique is the same as those seen on AG's videos. Same technique as what Paul was showing the other day - side to side with 50% coverage moving very slowly.

 

The only thing I would try again is using VERY little product. I began using very little, but I'll try even less. 2-3 pea sized drops is how it'll be. Like I said before - the OP and OC do leave the paint feeling great and with a great shine, but in terms of swirl removal, it really has failed miserably. I can try and snap some pics this weekend of the cars I've worked with. Again, I'm pretty sure it is user error, but it seems like the more and more I read online (which i know is not the best way to learn from scratch how to properly detail) it seems like people get good results using Optimum and Rotary. Plus everyone keeps harping about the beauty that is menz, although I am perfectly aware how fickle and bandwagonish online forums can be.

 

So no - I'm not a troll nor do I intend to flame. I'm simply just frustrated (As many of you guys noticed) with the lack of result after all that work. I bought Optimum because everyone seemed to agree it was a great n00b friendly polish, but apparently my abilities are lower than that of a n00b or there's a much steeper learning curve than people make out. Plus, I'm a cheap ass and $17 for 32oz of polish (that everyone says to use super sparingly) compared to $55 for menzerna seemed like a much better bargain.

[Ron Harris]

Stupenal,

We hold no Ill feelings toward you and understand your frustration.

I think Paul's statement that you posted rubed every one the wrong way.

Having spoken to him once over the phone his personalty was some what abrasive.

I have spoken to others who know him and this is just the way he is. He is quick to slam anything that he is not selling.

I don't understand people who are like this. It kind of makes me feel that maybe they know that what they have is not that good so they have to belittle others for having chosen something else. I could be wrong though.

[Anthony Orosco]

Nor was my mud slinging comment directed towards you but rather people who do so in general. Like I said our goal is to try and help.....even if it means recommending other products. While this says "Optimum Forums" I try to keep it directed towards ALL products. I use mainly Optimum but I also use a host of others from time to time also.

 

If something doesn't work well I would rather put it aside and leave it to collect dust than trash talk it. That's our point. To make the claim that Optimum is not made by Optimum is a rumor with nothing to substantiate it. Now it could be that Paul never made that statement or it was a misunderstanding and related in error and if so then that needs to be made clear, after all this is how rumors start, from misinformation.

 

Hope you're able to get your issues sorted out.

 

Anthony

[CrobarCars]

Thanks for the clarification. You seem like a good guy. I really do not wish for you to be down on Optimum. I would like to assist you with some of your concerns.

 

 

Since your only 10 miles from CG, maybe we can get together and I can assist you with some of your concerns hands on and get those cars where they belong. Let me know if your interested.

Consider it a workout at the gym. I need all the exercise I can get!

 

I am glad you came here for help.....also glad you only spent an hour on your car.

 

I do not really post on other forums anymore due to the flaming that has gone on over the years. I just am to busy to deal with what a true waste of time it really is. I realize there is Optimum bashing out there, and this forum is mostly folks who realize the trash talk should be left on the court and not on a detailing forum. I have many products and use them all. One day I wanted less products to take with me and work as a professional detailer. Optimum has allowed that to become a reality.

 

Welcome and let me know if you would like to spend the day getting your cars up to spec. using Optimum.

 

Consider this a value add form this forum for purchasing Optimum Products and coming to the forum.

 

I have worked on a Black Beemer not to long ago, and no doubt it is a challenge. I think HyperCompound is the way to go on the initial passes. I have some and can give you as a sample bottle. I also have many pad selections, your welcome to use them should we get together Let me know.

 

( I am not affiliated with Optimum in any way. I just love the stuff and Anthony has been my mentor since the early days of my detailing life. Also, I know Paul personally, and his advice over the years on various aspects of the detailing business has helped me.I like his products too.)

[Gemini13]

About a week later, while my car was under some outdoor lighting at night, I saw that the car was FILLED with swirls still. For some reason they didn't show up under my 1000w craftsman light in my garage, but were easily seen underneath the outdoor lighting.

You know its funny you post this as I experienced the same thing last night. I've been working on my Explorer a little here and a little there over the last two weeks (due to time constraints and lack of garage). On monday I got home from work and repolished the hood (didn't like the first results compared to the drivers side of the truck) with a rotary, OP and the edge double sided S1 pad. This was done in full sun and I also used the Brinkman close up to inspect and the truck is black. I am a rotary newb so I know my technique needs work but I've gotten better at it in my experimentation. Anyway so I hit the hood with the wool and between 1000 and 1500 rpm I removed the swirls but left some trails (I think I may have had the RPM to high). I then fallowed with the foam side and removed the trails. I then used a Megs G110 with a pre sealant prep product and then my sealant. The paint looked great with what I thought was ~90% correction and no buffer trails. So last night I take the wife and little one out shopping and I drop them off at the store and then go do some of my own running around. When I got back to pick them up it was dark out and I parked under one of the parker lot lights with the four bulbs (Mercury Vapor maybe???) and for the hell of it got out to check the hood and OMG it was serious f'd up. I saw some water spots and a million swirls that I couldn't see before. Needless to say I wanted to go home and cry. Anybody else ever notice this?? I mean its was drastic.

[Charlies02GLS]

So last night I take the wife and little one out shopping and I drop them off at the store and then go do some of my own running around. When I got back to pick them up it was dark out and I parked I parked under one of the parker lot lights with the four bulbs (Mercury Vapor maybe???) and for the hell of it got out to check the hood and OMG it was serious f'd up. I saw some water spots and a million swirls that I couldn't see before. Needless to say I wanted to go home and cry. Anybody else ever notice this?? I mean its was drastic.

 

Metal Hallide lights in general are brutally honest in telling you whether or not there are defects in your paint, I'd love to install some in the garage but there's already limited headroom as is (plus it's my parents garage and the dog and I are going to be moving in the next couple of months ). I have no first hand experience with the Edge system so take my comments for what they're worth.

 

For the swirls:

Assuming you worked it long enough, there wasn't too much product on the pad, and the jump from the wool to foam wasn't a giant leap (in aggressiveness) try stepping down to a finer finishing pad after that foam pad. I'd even suggest using different pads at different speeds in test spots on the hood and take the Explorer to a plaza and checking out your results at night. It might take some time but the absolute best way to learn is through experience.

 

Did you try doing an IPA wipedown after polishing to see if the polishing oils were just sitting in the defects?

 

Hope this helps

[Gemini13]

Did you try doing an IPA wipedown after polishing to see if the polishing oils were just sitting in the defects?

 

Hope this helps

Thanks for the info. I did buy a Prep-Sol type product from Wal-Mart (last night whilst shopping) that I will use in the future for that.